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· Infantry of WW2
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Gizmotron
 


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:04 am Reply with quote Back to top

something I've been thinking about for awhile, but currently lack the ability to do, is a ground-based regimental transport for infantry.

I'm not convinced that the game could allow infantry to pack themselves into and out of halftracks (as they actually did during the war).

however, it should theoretically be possible to create a a "Transport Land" that could roll complete regiments out to locations just like a "Water Transport". this could give a tactical flexibility to players that was previous unavailable in the past. giving it the speed, health and defense values of a regular half-track means that it wouldn't be as helpless as a water-transport. it would probably STILL require some sort of escort once the game went fully mechanized.

perhaps use a special infantry HQ that has access to the ground-transport? you can already include scripts into the Infantry HQ that use "Deploy to Location"-- so the key is to create a new mode of transport that can actually be summoned from the HQ.

something challenging to look into. it would probably require a new type of unit similar to the Water Transport...
 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

I was trying to do the same thing but with boats. I was hoping to make battleships and carriers buildable at the HQ, but without a transport they appear and die (Because they appear on land). So for this I would have to create a knid of fake transport so they appear in water off the map and come in.

For your idea, again it would require a new model and at this point I have no idea how to implement it.

I did read that halftracks should be transports, but again there seems to be no garrison scripts to copy. I think intitally they did, since they are icons for infantry and tank bunkers (Would have been interesting), but it may have been cut due to the regiment idea (How can you garrison four tanks?!).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

the best compromise I saw for building carriers and battleships was the World at War mod where the United States could purchase carriers and battleships during the meta-game stage and then move them around on the map accordingly like a regular army. still trying to wrap my head around that one-- as it looks like a lot of work!
 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:14 am Reply with quote Back to top

Theoretically if you wanted to get infantry regiments to be transported in trucks you could get them to "pack" and "unpack" like a hq or building
 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:42 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm, that's interesting. I think I'll mess around with that, Cpt.Kramer, see if I can get anything to work. Only thing is, AI won't know how to properly use them, if this is perfected.
 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

yes the ai is rather foolish on a whole...but the only thing ive ever gotten them to build is anti-tank armored regiments (they were probably preprogrammed into the game but never implemented)
 
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I tried the pack/unpack thing-- it seems the truck only likes to unpack into a single actor. this doesn't really work for mobile deployments of an entire regiment unloading from a truck. what this does work for is when you use an arty-bunker as the CO and surround him with engineers, machine-gun, infantry, and mortars. it allows you to create a self-sustaining defensive regiment that can hold cities, gain experience, and so on. the down-side is that if the CO bunker gets killed the regiment is incapable of moving anywhere else!
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe try to substitute the transporter that transporters the troops, using the same mod use it for the same to the truck? Or it wouldn't work?
 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

some modders in China figured out how to do this by using a denizen component. the infantry get spawned in the presence of the enemy. after studying their code I was able to reproduce the effect. so... that's a nice breakthrough.
 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Gizmotron wrote:
some modders in China figured out how to do this by using a denizen component. the infantry get spawned in the presence of the enemy. after studying their code I was able to reproduce the effect. so... that's a nice breakthrough.


Have you looked into this at all recently? Been thinking about adding something like this to Steel Fists.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I did touch on your suggestion of a denizen component and I have to say I'm not the largest fan of this method of implementation. I'm going to need to look into this more as units spawned this way don't retain their experience, don't appear to suffer morale loss (though I could be overlooking it) and most catastrophically cannot be directed by the player as they're automated.

It is an interesting topic, but I fear we might not have a workable solution.
 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

the game treats spawned regiments the same way that it treats regular regiments. as soon as that regiment ceases to exist, for whatever reason, it no longer exists. when the unit that spawns these regiments encounters another enemy a brand new regiment, identical to the older one, is spawned. it is impossible for spawned regiments to retain their experience. I considered the possibility of having the spawning regiment pass down it's benefits to the spawned regiments... but that would make them too powerful.

my best compromise has to been that spawned regiments are small. this way they get wiped out quickly. it's not perfect, by any means, but it appears to be the only way the game code is capable of doing this.

the other solution would be to have the spawned regiments get deducted from your active regiment quota. the reason for this is because a player could decide to spam 12 regular halftrack regiments (that spawned four recon regiments each) for a base rush. that would mean they could rush an enemy base, get within close range, and automatically generate 48 recon regiments while sweeping through an enemy base. if there was no regimental penalty assigned to spawned regiments this would be even worse than the classic recon rush that was so grievously over-used in the original game! if an enemy player didn't have a bomb special op they might simply be doomed outright.

the regiment that can spawn regiments can also rapidly use up the game's memory resources - so if you deploy to many it will lead to more game crashes. I've found that recruiting one or two of these regiments is sufficient. I might use the infantry summons to help protect my tank destroyers or artillery mechs when dealing with enemy armored attacks.

I honestly haven't tackled the problem of spawned units not suffering any sort of morale damage -- apart from making sure that they're small. obviously the morale breaking point is still there - but for whatever reason a spawned regiment doesn't suffer from morale loss. my theory is that if this were possible we would have aircraft (which don't have morale) routing at the first sight of enemy AA fire. so it might not be something that can be worked around.

if a I have a regular sized regiment spawned I make sure that ONLY the two supporting units are capable of doing the summons. this is what I believe took place with the Canadian 'Kangeroo' regiments.

another problem, of course, is that you can use these sorts of regiments to rack up insane levels of experience points in a hurry. so if you had a general with the Atomic Bomb special op the generic halftrack regiment (spawning infantry recon regiments) would be your favorite way of racking up the points necessary to use this op. (it's also part of why I made the Atomic Bomb cost 6,000 points in my mod. you should only be able to use it one or two times per game. I also made it much more powerful, and increased the recharge time)
 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:09 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting.

I've been toying around with it. I think that I do have a system that I don't mind that much. The combat mechanics in Steel Fists are so divorced from the standard A&A combat mechanics that it isn't really possible to mechanized rush or recon rush (effectively) so that's not much of a fear for me. With the considerable testing and tweaking I've done I feel the lack of moral loss is actually fine - the halftracks and trucks that comprise our mobile infantry aren't going to be holding anything on their own and rushing a base without the full support of a balanced army is asking to get wiped out - especially if they don't already have the supply depots required to keep their army in supply (assaulting any position from beyond your own zone of supply is highly ill-advised in Steel Fists so early game rushes in general aren't too common as when combined with most of the map sizes and the time it takes to recruit certain units, by the time your rushing force is able to rush you'd run into a prepared enemy). For shits and giggles I actually decided to test it to see if either was possible and I quickly found that I was running into AI tanks with no AT of my own. In Steel Fists rifles/MGs/carbines, etc, don't damage tanks so the slaughter was thorough.

It looks like they're a nice supplement. Our regiments are four or six or trucks/halftracks that spawn a squad of infantry. They're fairly decent against most infantry formations save for prepared AT or distant mortars, but I think the real bonus they have is their higher speed vs our standard formations since they're not slowed down by the supporting infantry. Early game I can imagine using them to establish fronts and mid to late game as mobile reactionary forces to plug holes and guard flanks.

Aircraft are another matter entirely. I think we could benefit from having them rout, but that would require overhauling airpower. I briefly toyed with the idea of aerial regiments, but beyond the issues of implementation (aircraft behave in a bizarre manner and I'm not sure I can even get around their inherent issues), I'd need to MacGyver up some shenanigans to give the appearance of limited range since I wouldn't want people just parking the formations over an HQ and letting them do all the work. I really don't like A&A's implementation of airpower.
 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

this reminds me of why I decided to give anti-tank infantry a large attack bonus against armored cars and halftracks. it helped make AT infantry more useful. even if they couldn't hope to destroy a medium or a heavy tank... they could at LEAST knock out an armored car or a halftrack much faster than regular infantry. it would also help neutralize the threat of spamming halftrack for an easy win.

the aircraft range is basically hard-coded to be infinite... which I don't like. the only practical solution to this was to have aircraft use self-inflicted damage to have a time limit (like the saboteur or secret agent). the problem I had with that is... well, it reduces the usefulness of bombers a bit too much-- and it would make fighters virtually useless. in many cases you would have escort fighters self-destructing long before the bomber reaches the target. so I decided to leave well-enough alone on aircraft.

I couldn't get aerial regiments to work. they always exploded immediately when placed in the game.
 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

Gizmotron wrote:
this reminds me of why I decided to give anti-tank infantry a large attack bonus against armored cars and halftracks. it helped make AT infantry more useful. even if they couldn't hope to destroy a medium or a heavy tank... they could at LEAST knock out an armored car or a halftrack much faster than regular infantry. it would also help neutralize the threat of spamming halftrack for an easy win.

the aircraft range is basically hard-coded to be infinite... which I don't like. the only practical solution to this was to have aircraft use self-inflicted damage to have a time limit (like the saboteur or secret agent). the problem I had with that is... well, it reduces the usefulness of bombers a bit too much-- and it would make fighters virtually useless. in many cases you would have escort fighters self-destructing long before the bomber reaches the target. so I decided to leave well-enough alone on aircraft.

I couldn't get aerial regiments to work. they always exploded immediately when placed in the game.


Easily. My thinking is that WWII was a war of infantry - tanks are glamourous, but infantry formations did the bulk of the anti-tank work, not other tanks; for reference the Germans invaded the Soviet Union with a few thousand tanks along a front a few thousand kilometers long - this is, proportionally, about a single tank per kilometer of front, or - as they more reasonably deployed - concentrations of tanks in certain areas with infantry only in other areas.

Soviets, of course, had four to five times their number in tanks. Even accounting for the fact they were mostly light tank types, this still does heavily implicate the effectiveness of infantry formations vs tanks. In fact, it was shown repeatedly that only when paired with their own infantry support and artillery were tanks able to succeed against infantry formations.

So for our purposes infantry need to be able to effectively fight against vehicles. This is actually the reason why even tank and vehicle formations in Steel Fists are mostly infantry - even if you don't have great anti-tank you'll still be able to combat them effectively and force them back through exhaustion or morale, and anyone who doesn't build a balanced army - say they have only mechanized formations or only tank formations - will not be able to match your own forces in overall count as via costing it is far better to have mechanized and armoured formations form a core to exploit breakthroughs rather than try to hold a long front line.

As for air...

It is an interesting topic and I think I might look into it a bit more, I'm not sure - what I found was terribly unpromising. I have theories on what I'd do for aircraft range (a combination of giving them a supply stockpile and self-inflict damage of some sort similar - but not exactly - to the spy/saboteur that should, in theory, apply when this runs out. It's a rough theory but I think I might be able to get something to work reasonably along these lines), but for my purposes it's rather pointless bothering if I can't get regiments to work because they would operate in tandem with the way fronts move in Steel Fists and would be there to prevent just parking bombers over an HQ and instead would focus the air combat around where the front lines are at.

To be honest, though, it seems, to me, that quite a bit about aircraft is hard-coded. It really is a shame.

By the way, I did look at your mod the other day. If you don't mind me asking, where were you able to find the tank/aircraft models, or were they custom? I know it's likely been stated here, somewhere, buuuuut it's been years and I hardly recall. Image I've been meaning to get around to looking for models myself, beyond what I've been able to cobble together with NifSkope.
 
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

a bunch of the models for "Uncommon Valor" were donated/borrowed from other modders. some of these were from the Chinese modding comunity - where the game is still fairly active online (I'm told). we also got permission to use the "Forgotten Combatants" mod as part of our own work... although we changed roughly 60% of the content for that mod. it helped us out tremendously.

theharkkonen is the modeling part of the team for "Uncommon Valor". mostly what I tackled was coding issues and researching the new factions. while he was spending hundreds of hours working models I was spending hundreds of hours researching the nearly 3000 units, roughly 2000 regiments, 1000+ buildings, and 500 generals. I also think the mod has over 100 special ops now.

theharkonnen is also the guy who figured out how to add new territories into the WW2 map. that part was very exciting. "Uncommon Valor" has a WW2 Metagame that's far more complex and varied than the original. and it's very nice to not see same same thing over and over again.

it's been a lot of fun. STILL trouble-shooting the mod for missing skins and stuff like that. I created it on, and for, Windows XP usage. so over the last couple of months I've been over-hauling it to work better on Windows 10.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting.

It might be worth my while to get into contact with the Chinese community, then. I don't necessarily need new models, it'd just be nice - especially considering the US and Great Britain aren't on the same side in the universe of Steel Fists so it's rather jarring to see American tanks and equipment being used by them, lol.

How did you get into contact with them? I don't think they frequent these forums here.
 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

actually, they reached out to me when they saw that I intended to add both Nationalist China and Communist China to the "Uncommon Valor" mod.

it started in the comments section here:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/gizmotrons-axis-allies-user-mod/downloads/gizmotrons-axis-allies-user-mod

they actually helped me out a lot just by giving me a few links. granted, I spent a very long time using Google-translate and reading thousands of files to learn this from them. but it paid off. it made "Uncommon Valor" a much richer and more varied mod as a result.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:06 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ooof. There's a dearth of activity there.

I'll see what I can do.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted on what I end up finding out with air. Placing it on the backburner for the time being while I work through some other stuff first but I'll come back to it.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Alright, well, I never did get a reply from the Chinese mod team. I think that leaves me at a loss.

:hmmm:
 
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